Outcome independence, revisited

File under: this was going to be a comment, but…

Recently Roosh posted about Outcome Independence, and with all due respect to him, I think he conflated things. Of course, he may seek to redefine what terms mean but I won’t get into that.

Obviously it’s important to have goals in life and when we fail we have an opportunity to assess what went wrong and improve. Without that, one wouldn’t accomplish things.

However, outcome independence is a different matter. In simplest terms, outcome independence is:

Not allowing concerns about performance outcomes to interfere with actual performance.

If you’re outcome dependent you allow your concerns over performance to influence your current state, “frame”, or self-esteem, and therefore influence your performance. As comments have suggested, you may appear needy and lacking in self-confidence.

Example: If you’re giving a presentation and are hyper concerned about giving a bad presentation, your anxiety will interfere with your performance and you’ll be more likely to give a bad presentation. It doesn’t mean that you don’t care how the presentation goes if you don’t allow concerns you have to interfere with your performance. It’s really more that you’re sure that you’ll do well and less concerned with the outcome.

In other words, being outcome independent means you’re not so worried about failing that you botch things. You can still have goals in life, whatever they be, and actively pursue them, and be outcome independent.

It should be self-evident that the more experience, mastery, and confidence one has, the less worried one will be about outcomes, even if one has goals and takes action to meet those goals.

Further, it means that even if you do botch the presentation, you’re still okay with yourself as a person. It doesn’t mean you won’t acknowledge your failure and try to learn from it, and it doesn’t mean you won’t see it as an opportunity to learn and grow. It’s no use being down in the dumps. Having some time to reflect on errors is one thing. Being in the dumps is another.

And if you’re on the way home after ten approaches and ruminating badly and in the dumps, can you be open to any other opportunities that might present themselves at that time?

Don’t turn into Eeyore.

It’s somewhat ironic that Roosh selected Alexander the Great and Hitler as examples of men who weren’t outcome independent. If anything, these two meglomaniacs absolutely were outcome independent, insofar as they must have had little doubt of their abilities to reach their goals. While Alexander the Great must have wanted very badly to achieve his goals, he wasn’t rattled with self-doubts that interfered with conquering the world. Perhaps Alexander the Great is irrational self-confidence personified.


One should have goals, and try to achieve them.

If you don’t put in any effort to achieve your goals, and fail, and conclude that everything is just peachy, that’s hardly what outcome independence is. That’s a different kind of not giving a shit and expecting everything to fall in your lap. I’d call it lazy and delusional.

One should assess what one did wrong and move forward. However, that doesn’t mean one is outcome dependent, per se. If you do your ten approaches and every girl was turned off by how needy and outcome dependent you were, the obvious lesson is that you should dig deep and figure out why it’s so important to you to get laid that you act so needy around girls.

That’s perhaps the hardest, yet most important thing about game.

And further, there’s a vast difference between going home from a night out empty-handed, and failing at one’s life goals. Unless one’s life goal has become to not go home empty handed.

Lastly, some of the comments have stated that outcome independence came from RSD (whatever that is).

If you actually believe that, allow me to enlighten you.

It’s called Zen.

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5 thoughts on “Outcome independence, revisited

  1. You’re right on with what Outcome Independence is – simply not being needy at the time of interaction. Afterwards you can review your game or acknowledge your mistakes in a place where you’re horny as hell after a night of blow outs and use that anger, need, and drive to improve yourself. But in the moment, you should be atleast -trying- to live in the moment. New routines will feel rough, but the goal should be to have your core game down so that it’s like breathing.

    I think Roosh may have been addressing the term Outcome Independence the same way Rollo did with the game term “Aloof” in his recent post http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/09/14/amused-mastery/

    When these terms get thrown around so often, and as more new people come to game and the Manosphere, it’s easy for people to latch on to the literal definition of the terms. Aloof was one of them, and Rollo pointed out where it’s easy for those new to game to mess up the term and get it wrong for weeks or months depending on their learning curves.

    As such, I viewed the Roosh post in much the same light. If he reads this and I’m wrong, I’d love to hear it. He very well could have been trying to redefine the term or be encouraging people to try something new.

  2. Pingback: LIGFY – Oct 21 | Society of Amateur Gentlemen

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